Real Life Radio: Episode 002 – How to understand the Bible, and exposing the greatest lie about the Cross [Podcast]

January 19, 2015

In Episode 001 of Real Life Radio, I was interviewed by my friend Jamal Jivanjee. The conversation evolved into a discussion about some wonderful topics, such as Fellowship in the Divine, and inclusion in the Love of God. Jamal and I both received some terrific dialogue from those who listened to the conversation.

“I just listened to half of the conversation and had to stop. Something deep inside of me felt like it was going to explode! I have to marinate on what I’ve heard and celebrate, before I can attempt to finish.”

“I’ve listened to this conversation 3 times. I am literally breathing easier!”

“I’m re-listening: ‘When Jesus ascended He didn’t cease to be incarnate in the Earth, His incarnation was multiplied in everyone of us.’ – Brandon Chase”

“Great show. Enjoyed it tremendously! Organic / simple church, inclusion, the heart of God, all great topics. It was nice to hear others talk about what I know to be true. Thank you.”

“I was really blessed by this. It was drunken bliss.”

“Oh my heart just exploded! This is GREAT!”

“Divinely timed Word for me! So rich and beautiful and exactly where I’m at. I will be gleaning the Lord from that conversation for many days to come.”

“Straight Gospel. Sooo much wack on this! I could literly feel the freedom and peace while listening. Half way through I was on the floor in a complete state of rest enJOYing both your hearts and feasting on the Jesus you each bring to the table. Wow!”

“Incredible! It might take me a little while to recover. Truly wonderful. Thank you both for leading the way into deeper identity and reality.”

“Whoa! What else can I say? That was an EPIC podcast. I have a lot to wrestle with the Lord over. This opened a huge can of worms for me.”

On Jamal’s blog, in the comments after where he posted the conversation, a beautiful exchange is taking place, right up to this time. I encourage you to go read that there.

Needless to say, if you haven’t heard Episode 001, please go listen to that first, as this Episode 002 is a bit of a “follow up” to Episode 001. In light of some of the additional questions (pushback) that Episode 001 raised, we thought it was wise to continue the dialogue and address some of these topics. Episode 002 is just that.

What you will hear:

How should we read, approach and understand Scripture and the Bible?
Jesus is the “Canon,” the “measuring stick.” What does this mean?
Who is God, and how can we know? What is He like, really?
Mimetic Theory – huh? What is it, and how can it help us understand the human condition? How can it help us understand The Cross?
What is The Cross? What really happened there? Did God kill His Son so that He wouldn’t have to kill us? Or, could it be that many have misunderstood this?
What were we “saved” from on The Cross?
What is “judgement,” “wrath,” “justice” from God’s perspective?
Love: the most powerful Force in the Cosmos

Resources mentioned:

Reñe Girard
Michael Hardin
Derek Flood – Healing the Gospel
Walter Wink – The Powers

After you listen:

Subscribe to Real Life Radio
Check out Jamal’s blog and engage in the comments
Comment below, or on social media – we want to hear from you!

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kenneth dawson

Yes I listened to the whole thing and wow how exciting–I learned a new thing–the mimetic theory and that is very interesting–and yes I have always considered Jesus to be the true canon of God–I do hope you will be writing some articles on your blog site about this stuff and how it reflects on the truth about the cross.
Alan

Brandon, good call on Ohio State. Your conversation was so full that came away thinking you ended up in a good place but I got lost getting there. What is so encouraging is that things centered around God being love and that we’re included. Where I got lost was the thought that the parts of the Old Testament that do not mesh with the love of God were written by men and were miswritten/untrue. I don’t understand how the calls for violence against others in the OT mesh with the love of God in Jesus. When I get angry that Boko Haram in Nigeria wholly slaughters an entire village in Nigeria, I remember that in the OT God often calls for his people to do something similar. I don’t understand, but maybe the answer isn’t to say that the OT is untrue in its portrayal of God but that there is a mystery about God that is deeper. When I read, “And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict—so I will watch over them, to build, and to plant,” says the Lord,” I’m wondering if what is violent to me has a place in God’s love/holiness. It wasn’t part of your conversation, but part of the missing link in things for me is where God’s holiness would fit in. . . hoping this may come up if you guys do another conversation. Had posted this on Jamal’s after the first conversation, but wouldn’t Revelation, the last testimony/book of Jesus, have been written differently and much of it discounted like the OT to mesh with your ideas? Other things in the New Testament would also need to be discounted, things from Paul like “… When the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be Glorified in his saints and to be marvel that among all who have believed…” Please believe that I am not throwing up things to argue about, I just have a hard time meshing things that you said with things that are written.

Also, Jamal’s thought that the system of OT sacrifices were not called for by God. There’s this beautiful description of the high priest who goes in one see year to the Holy of Holies, with all the things he wears, and the one that stuck with me is that he wears on his head a gold plate engraved with the words ‘Holy to the Lord’. And it is worn it says so the people may be accepted before the Lord, even if in their gifts to the Lord they have guilt. I don’t know, it just seems to speak to the tenderness of God to make provision that way for the people, and when the NT mentions Jesus’ entry as high priest into God’s presence by his own blood, making a way for us to enter in too, that whole OT way seems to be of God with Jesus the better.

There are some other questions I came away with but this has gotten too long already. I know that there’s living truth in the Bible when opened by the Spirit, and that truth isn’t usually found on the surface from just reading a book, but I’m not ready to discount the passages that seem to conflict with love as not being from God. There’s a verse that says that the secret things belong to God but that the things that are revealed belong to his people, or something like that. I’m okay with that, even if it’s frustrating to not have things totally figured out. In so many ways I struggle with truth that in a living way would make for being transparent. I really appreciate you guys sharing your heart with others and what you found to be true of Jesus.
- Brandon Chase
  
  Alan –
  
  I understand, friend. It’s a lot to digest, and more to have longstanding mindset’s and understandings challenged.
  
  The violent God of the OT is undone in the Person of Christ. He partly came to reveal that the violence attributed to God was in fact a misunderstanding of God and His will. Jesus came to show us that God is Love, that there is no violence toward His Family Him. Jesus also came to reveal that any violence you feel in yourself sometimes, is not you either. The real you, looks like Jesus.
  
  Love you, brother.
  - Alan
    
    “The real you, looks like Jesus.” How good is that. . . thanks for the reply full of grace.
    
    Not sure what to make of things. The Bible is just a book, but more than any other there is life there if the Spirit brings the words alive. But it always seems to point to other things. If the Bible was the point of things, seems like we would have an original copy of the Bible, more like the Quran whose current version is supposed to be the exact same as when it was first given. . . and we would need to recite it in Greek like Muslims learn Arabic. Last summer, not sure why, but read all 4 accounts of the resurrection at one time and it’s beyond me how to get the accounts to line up, so may differences in the particulars. You’d think of all the things to get ‘right’, the resurrection story would be the one. At first, thought John’s was correct since he was the only one of the 4 writers that were there. But ended up coming to the conclusion that they are all true and point to different things. . . that truth is more than ‘facts.’
    
    Having said that, have trouble taking the step of saying the OT was a misunderstanding. Reading some of the OT prophets who write, “Thus says the Lord…” have trouble saying it was just their words not God’s. Going there, not sure how to decide what is true. And lose something in heart if it’s left to me to decide which parts of the Bible are true or misunderstandings. Finding it’s OK to live with both parts of the Bible even if I can’t explain it.
    
    What I am happy about is that we can gather together in Jesus and the love of God in him. Truth discriminates but it should never divide those whom God has made brothers and sisters. So thank you brother for your pointing to Jesus.
    - Brandon Chase
      
      I don’t want you to hear me say that the OT is without merit, or purpose, that it should be disregarded. No. I am saying though, that without the Lens of Christ, we cannot begin to understand the OT, or God. Jesus revealed Him. The Bible is wonderful. It is all about Jesus, and Jesus is all about you!
      - Alan
        
        Confess that I may have heard wrong but what I heard isn’t that the OT is without merit or purpose, but that it is without truth, at least as far as those passages that speak to violence and the wrath of God, and that the writers of those were mistaken, that they misunderstood God and wrote out of their own understanding. I’m with you in needing to understand the OT thru seeing Christ, that he is the character of God, that he is eternal that way. What doesn’t register is if understanding the OT words about the wrath and vengeance of God means that they are misunderstandings, not sure how to view all the similar NT passages from John and Paul and Jesus.
        
        I’m not saying you’re wrong, and I’m not a good partner for this conversation as I don’t have any answers for reconciling the love of God in Jesus and the wrath of God. The closest I come to peace in these things is that they find resolution in God’s holiness. . . that the utterness and purity of God matters in all things and the love of God in Jesus and what he accomplished allows us entry and union.
        
        Hope you guys do more conversations. . . the way you track so closely with each makes the discussion a joy to listen to. Was thinking you guys were so together that future ones could go under one name. . . Bramal or Jamdon. :))
      - Brandon Chase
        
        Bramal or Jamdon. So good.
        
        I know it’s hard to reconcile that Biblical writers could have written things down that were in “error” and yet still “inspired” by God. You might check out some other resources along these lines. Brian Zahnd, Derek Flood and Pete Enns have great new books out that address this.
      - Alan
        
        Thanks Brandon for the names, not familiar with them or their work. Know I’ve got blind spots & open to better ways to think about things, just don’t want to hold God less than He is. Even allowing for God’s wrath, good news is that there’s no fear in Jesus, and glad we can fellowship in Christ.
      - Jesse
        
        My issue with saying that the writers were in error in the OT, than what is to say they were not in error in the NT? I mean if we start picking and choosing what parts of the Bible to say is true and what is not that becomes very dangerous.
      - Brandon Chase
        
        I don’t know that saying I am picking and choosing which parts of the Bible are true and what is not is entirely accurate. I’m saying Jesus re-forms and re-defines what we read and have read of all Scripture. He is the Final Word, and further, is living and active.
      - Jesse
        
        Yes, I agree that viewing and reading the Bible through the lens of Jesus is the way we should go about it. At the same time saying that the writers were in error in the OT is essentially saying what they are saying is not true. I don’t totally understand the statements in the OT and how they fit into God’s plan and I’m okay with that, but to say that it is in error or not true doesn’t seem like an option. If that is the case, then people can make their own truth based on what they believe to be true instead of the absolute truth of God.
    - Bernard
      
      Hi Alan. An interesting comment thread, where I’ve resonated with a number of your comments.
      
      Regarding your mention of the resurrection accounts, you may find Easter Enigma of interest, by John Wenham. He shows how it is possible to see the accounts as integrated, complementary, and non-contradictory when read carefully and attention given to detail and nuance. If you’re not able to get hold of the book there is various related information available on the Internet. I’ve listed some links below. Trust you find this of interest. Regards. Bernard.
      
      http://www.amazon.com/Easter-Enigma-Resurrection-Accounts-Conflict/dp/1597521663
      
      http://www.graceelgin.org/documents/EasterEnigma2.pdf
      
      http://www.slideshare.net/mobile/schumacr/the-third-day-are-the-resurrection-events-in-conflict
      - Alan
        
        Bernard, thanks for the info. Just checked back here to follow the conversation and saw your comment.
        All the accounts are truth and while I’ve read that they don’t negate each other, it seems really strained/tortured to make one continuous account that meshes with the accounts given. Everything from the number of angels to how they are encountered to things spoken and by whom and who visited when and in what order, etc. is seemingly different. At heart, believe the greatest account in the bible, the resurrection, is richer deeper wider and fuller than what is given from a surface reading of ‘facts.’
        The questions I had/have are no obstacle to going on where’s there’s life. I know my walk with Jesus in this world is really off when my limited understanding becomes the measure of Truth. . . seems always in that place going forward either stops or is hindered.
      - Bernard
        
        Hi Alan. Thanks for your response and sharing your perspective on the resurrection accounts. Thanks again for your other comments, and keep walking with Jesus.
        
        You may already know this, but just in case not, when commenting as a guest you can subscribe to have comments on a thread automatically sent to your email. At the bottom of this comment thread and just below the section titled ‘Also on Zoe Perissos’ you will see a small ‘envelope’ icon. If you click on this and enter your email, you should receive any follow up comments. Trust this helps, but apologies if you are already aware. Regards. Bernard.
      - Alan
        
        Thanks Bernard, didn’t know that. . . Exhibit #1 in why my limited understanding isn’t/shouldn’t be the measure of God’s Truth. So easy to be blind to blind spots.
      - Bernard
        
        That’s ok Alan. Glad to be of some help. As you say, whatever the area, and particularly so regarding God’s Truth, we all have limited understanding. But the amazing thing is that as we walk with Jesus, he teaches us more and more of his Truth. Wishing you well. Bernard.
Alan

Hey brother, really struggling with the thought that the Bible misrepresents God. One of the great things on this journey is the words of the Bible becoming living thru the Spirit. . . that in many ways, first came to know in a living way what being alive in the Spirit is thru reading the Bible. In the last few days was reading something from Austin Sparks on responsibility, cause I was feeling irresponsible, and in the middle of it he wrote something that says better than I can where my heart is:

” Paul is talking about the craftsman. And he says, ‘Now you have got the specification given to you in the Word of God. Don’t toy with it, don’t play with it, don’t be careless about it. See to it that the truths of the Word of God are faithfully observed, that you handle the Word of God absolutely honestly.’ In his second Corinthian letter you remember the Apostle used this phrase: “Not… handling the word of God deceitfully” (2 Cor. 4:2). What does that mean? Making it mean what it does not mean, for our own convenience – because it suits us so to interpret it! But “no… scripture is of private interpretation” (2 Peter 1:20). Our attitude must be: The Word of God says THIS; we cannot get round it. Don’t try to get round it, don’t try to make it mean something that it does not mean, and certainly don’t be superior to it and think that you know better than what it says. Be absolutely honest with the Word of God. The Word of God says that; the blueprint, the pattern, the specification gives that as the precise line of things: then take it. Don’t think that you can improve upon it; don’t be careless about it. Take note of it.

“The Spirit, the Holy Spirit, gave the Word. Here, to Timothy, the Apostle says so: “All Scripture given by inspiration of God is profitable for…” this and that and that. The Spirit gave the Word. We must be adjusted by the Holy Spirit to the Word that He has given! That is ‘rightly dividing’, or, as literally the word is, ‘cutting straight lines’ with, the Word of God. Just be honest with it! Just let it mean to you what it really does mean, and don’t try to get round it. “All Scripture is given by inspiration”, by the Holy Spirit. Paul was not saying things just out of his own predilection, his own preferences, his likes and dislikes: he was speaking what has become Scripture. Don’t get round it. Be honest. You don’t stand to lose anything; you stand to gain the blessing of God. Yes, we must be adjusted to the Word of God: neither less than the Word, nor more.”

Know you’re on a journey with/in Jesus, and I’m not sure if you’ve gone too far or I’ve not gone far enough, but please accept this shout out of caution from someone further down the mountain who cares about a brother to beware of the cliff.
- Brandon Chase
  
  Thank you, Alan. I love you, friend, and appreciate your sincerity here, and concern for me.
  
  The irony is, I agree with what you’ve said here, and feel comfortable with where I am – within what you’ve said. You see, I feel like I am indeed rightly dividing the word here (Bible), in light of The Word (Jesus). I feel like His lens is making plain what it is we are to be honest about what is being said, both written, and in light of Who He Is.
  
  Thanks again.
  - Jesse
    
    But if we change the word of God, what is truth? We can’t just X out parts we don’t like or agree with
    - Brandon Chase
      
      Jesse –
      
      I’m not “changing” the word of God (and here you are using this as the Bible) – I am interpreting and understanding what is written there differently.
      
      Truth is a Person, and that Person is the Word.
      - Jesse
        
        I think we agree more than we disagree and both love and want to get closer to Jesus, but our interpretations are different, which I’m okay with because in the end we both could be wrong. In the here and now we both see the need to express the love of Jesus to others and let them know about their identity in Him.
      - Brandon Chase
        
        One of the most mature and loving responses I’ve seen. Thank you, and I agree. I’ve really enjoyed our dialogue, and the way you’ve handled it. Stay in touch, friend, and we’ll explore and expand Christ together (even in getting in absolutely wrong sometimes along the way)!
  - Alan
    
    Hey brother, maybe someday I’ll be where you are and see what you see. To have come to know Jesus in a living way thru experience is just grace to me but have so much more to know/learn and thinking the world is upside down if the little I know is the measure of defining things in the Bible.
    
    You know what, even if my caution turns out to have something in it, what I’ve learned of cliffs and falling and following Jesus is that with Jesus, while it may be painful, he doesn’t let you fall so far and he lands you at a better place. And he always gives the strength to continue with him. Glad there’s brothers like you and Jamal on this journey.
- Sam
  
  Hey Alan! I started to respond to your comment here, but it got too long, so I e-mailed you. You have mail.
  - Alan
    
    Hey Sam!!! Long time man. . . will check it out.
Sam

Brandon, we listened to both podcasts. I think we’re on the same page, even though we explain it in slightly different terms. Our understanding obviously throws a “monkey wrench” into the “well-oiled, well-tuned” systems that so many have set up. Then again, so many things throw a monkey wrench into those systems.

We must remember this way of understanding Jesus, free grace and the Bible is a serious threat to the power, authority, control, and income of all of the systems that teach that we must go to them and their system and support them and their system with our total allegiance, belief, time and money on an on-going basis if we are to have any hope of making it to heaven and avoiding everlasting punishment in the lake of fire.

Yes, Jesus totally messed with the religious system and those who profited from it in his day, and look what they did to him. Messing with people’s systems that provide them with power, authority, control and $$$ will not be well-received by those people. However, they do not set us free. That would be Jesus. They can only tell us what to believe and for their trouble they expect us to pay them, honor them, follow them and you-get-the-idea.
- Brandon Chase
  
  Agreed, friend. “The Kingdom” is subversive to EVERY other system – and ultimate will “throw a monkey wrench” in all of them!
  
  I’d be curious/fascinated to hear your cliff’s notes explanation, in your terms.
  
  Thanks for your encouragement.
  - Sam
    
    Yes, hang in there. I will e-mail you later. My “Cliff’s Notes” explanation would be long. To make it more manageable for both of us, what specific issues or areas most interest you?
    - Brandon Chase
      
      Oh, I was just referring to whatever you said we were on the same page over – so I guess it could have been:
      
      – reading the Bible
      – atonement
      – the Inclusive Gospel
      – Divine fellowship
      
      No worries.
      - Sam
        
        Brandon, I sent you an e-mail on Feb. 3 asking for clarification on the terms “reading the Bible” and “Divine fellowship”.
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